viction with it. The mere conviction of the truth of the fact, is not, however, the intent of my motion, which I think it now the more neceffary to explain, as the honourable gentleman, who spoke laft feems wholly at a lofs to guess what it may be. My view, Sir, in the refolution for which I moved, is, with all poffible duty and respect, to lay before his Majesty the fenfe of this houfe, with refpect to the great increase of the public expence, in an article from which we can derive no advantage, and to a degree, which by gradually burthening us with a debt, that we are wholly unable to bear, will terminate in our ruin. This, I think, we owe, as an act of duty to his Majefty and, as our votes are printed for the information of the public, I think this fact, in which the public is fo nearly interested, fhould appear in them. I would not, however, have it fuppofed that I am an enemy to all penfions indifcriminately, for I think that gentlemen who have diftinguifhed themfelves in the fervice of their country, have a right to a gratification, and I think it is the intereft of their country that they should have it. To reward merit is to produce it. The public, therefore, will purchafe greater advantage by thus ftimulating individuals to fignalize themselves in its fervice, than by expending the fame fum in any other manner. All that I mean is, to fhew that this article is fwelled beyond its due bounds, and that the difadvantage of contracting debts, the intereft of which can only be paid by the impofition of taxes, which cannot be borne, is greater than even the reward of merit itself can counter-balance and I am confident, that if his Majefty was apprized of the weight of our burthen, he would not fuffer us to bear it.'

:

After fome further debate upon this question, Mr. P. T. informed the committee that the Lord Lieutenant, upon his first coming to the administration here, reprefented the state of this country, with refpect to penfions, in fuch a light to his Majefty, as induced him to take them into confideration, and I am informed, added he, that his Majefty's fecretary of state has fince written a letter to the Lord Lieutenant, which came to his hand last night, impowering him to communicate to this house, his Majefty's intention, not to grant penfions upon this establishment hereafter, except upon very extraordinary occafions, either for life or years.'

To this Mr. I. F. (fuppofed to be John Fitz-Gibbon, member for Newcastle, in the county of Dublin) replied, I beg leave to obferve, that, in my opinion, the intelligence communicated by the honourable gentleman who fpoke laft, is premature, and contrary to order. It is premature, because when it is known that a parliamentary enquiry is immediately to be made, concerning the legality of granting away a very great

part

part of the fum annually paid in penfions, it is improper to anticipate, in this committee, a debate, which is to come on at a meeting of the house: and, it is contrary to order, to mention any intelligence of this kind in a committee .at all. Befides, it is at all times improper, as well in the house, as in a committee, to mention the king or his minifters, in a manner that may, in the leaft degree, influence the determination of this part of the legislature, in a question, upon which the public interest so effentially depends. When his majefty intends us the honour of a meffage, and it is brought to us by the proper officers, at his command, it is our duty to receive and confider it: but when we are deliberating upon a queftion, that comes properly before us as representatives of the people, we are not to be told that his majefty has faid this, or his minifter has faid that, much less are we to regard the whispers of a levée, or any thing that a minifter thinks fit to drop in a felect junto, with a view to have it reach this houfe, in the courfe of its circulalation. I exprefs myfelf with the greateft zeal, on this occafion, as it certainly behoves us not only to avoid, with the utmost care, all royal or minifterial influence, but even the appearances of it.'

Mr. P. T.-A. G.

• Not to controvert what has been offered to fhew that the intelligence juft communicated to the committee is premature, or contrary to order, it is fufficient for my own juftification, to repeat what I faid before, that I did not intend to communicate, it, and that I had not received any authority fo to do; but as fome hints had been thrown out, I thought it better to explain. the whole matter, than to let gentlemen go away with uncertain furmifes, and conceive prejudices, which it might afterwards be difficult to remove.'

Mr. R. F.

Admitting what that honourable Gentleman has faid, with respect to his Majefty's intention, and that his intelligence was properly conveyed, I think it should by no means preclude the refolution it is fuppofed to render unneceffary: for I obferve that the Royal Intention, as it has been reported to us, relates only to penfions for lives or years; whereas the great burthen upon this eftablishment is penfions during pleafure, which we feldom fee revoked, because they are generally effectual for the purpose intended. It is manifeft, from the uniform conduct of those to whom they are granted, that their influence is more certain, and, therefore, more dangerous, than that of others, and for this reafon, as to their immediate tendency, more worthy to be the fubject of an addrefs.'

Mr. J. D. (fuppofed to be James Denis, Efq; Member for Rathcormuck, in the county of Cork) made use of fome a gu

B 4

ments

ments in favour of the adjournment. And the queftion for the adjournment being put, was carried in the negative, 80 against 71. The question was then put for the motion, and paffed in the affirmative.

When this was reported to the houfe, on the 11th day, it occafioned a long and most affecting debate. But the question being put for the propofed address to the King, concerning the penfions, it paffed in the negative by a small majority.

The Judges, in Ireland, had always held their places only during the King's pleasure. This neceffarily gave the crown great influence in the judicial determinations of thefe magiftrates. It is a well-known faying of King James the firft," that while he could make Judges and Bishops, he would have what Law and what Gospel he pleafed." And the confequences of that Royal Prerogative were very apparent, both in church and ftate, in his own reign, and in the reigns of his three immediate fucceffors.-On the fourteenth day of this feffion, therefore, Mr. L. O. (supposed to be Lucius O'Brien, Esq; Member for Ennis, in the County of Clare) made a motion, (which he introduced with a very judicious and eloquent fpeech) that leave be given to bring in heads of a bill for making the Commiffions of Judges, quamdiu fe bene gefferint, which was ordered accordingly,

On the fifteenth day Mr. R. F. obferved, that, confidering the diftreffed fituation of Ireland, at that time, it was a matter of the highest importance to enquire into the extraordinary increase of the military establishment, before the fupplies were granted; that inftead of thirty regiments upon the establishment, there is now no less than forty-two, with the fame number of men, twelve thousand. This, faid he, is extremely dangerous to the conftitution; firft, by increafing dependents; and, fecondly, by increafing expence. The expence has increafed no lefs than 150,0col. a year, fince the year 1757, which this country is, by no means, able to bear: and this eftablishment, at prefent, amounts to 100,000l. a year more than in the height of the war; befides military contingencies and barracks, which amount to a very confiderable fum.'—He added, that the staff of general officers in Ireland, amounted to 22,000l. a year, though in England it amounted to no more than 11,000 l. fo that the expence in that article was just double; which, he faid, was furely furprifing, as, in this town, [Dublin] there are feldom general officers enough to make a board.

November 16, the 18th day of the Seffion, being the day appointed for confidering the ftate of the penfions, and how the increase of them might be prevented, a great debate arose; at the end of which, the queftion was put, Whether the enquiry

fhould,

fhould, or fhould not, be put off for a long day, and it was carried in the affirmative 126 to 78. In this debate Mr. W. B. faid, Mr. Speaker! Give me leave to fay, that we have as yet been guilty of no inconfiftency, and I cannot believe that we fhall. But in what light fhall we ftand if the following facts fhould be alledged against us?'

On Wednesday the ninth of November, we agreed that the penfions charged on this civil establishment, were an intolerable grievance. On the fame day we paffed an unanimous refolution, That, on the Tuesday following, we should take that grievance into confideration. On that Tuesday, we paffed another unanimous refolution, that we would confider the grievance on the next day; and on that very next day, refolved, that we would not confider the grievance at all.'

Mr. T- Le H- (Thomas Le Hunt, Efq; member for the town of Wexford) offered many arguments to fhew the impropriety of making ufe of his majefty's name in the debates of that houfe; and faid he should be very much fhocked and furprifed, if, after an unanimous refolution of the house for an enquiry into fo alarming a grievance, a contrary resolution should take place, and no enquiry fhould be made. He said, fuch a change of conduct could not poffibly be imputed to a change of opinion; and must therefore give occafion to furmifes highly detrimental to the honour and dignity of the house, wholly incompatible with the independence of its members, and the true intereft of the country they had been chosen to represent.

On the 21ft day, the houfe refolved itself into a committee, to confider the fupplies, and the Lord Lieutenant's speech; when Mr. P. T. laid before the committee an account of the fupplies that would be abfolutely neceffary to carry on the king's bufinefs: and he particularly diftinguished the fums neceffary for the military establishment, the civil eftablishment, and for the payment of intereft on the national Debt; and, after a fpeech, made this motion, "That it was the opinion of the committee, that the national debt was 520,000 l." which was, after fome oppofition, agreed to.

A motion was then made that the committee should agree to grant the ufual fupplies; which produced a long debate: and Mr. E. S. P. moved that the word necessary should be inferted inftead of the word ufual. This occafioned many notable fpeeches, in which the ftate of the nation, and particularly of the military establishment, is fully laid open. But at length it was carried in favour of the word ufual.

On the 23d day, the report was made from the committee of the whole houfe, appointed to confider of the fupplies, &c. And befides thofe which they thought neceflary for the public,

there

there were several refolutions of theirs reported, for confiderable fums, to carry on improvements and manufactures in the country; from which fums there were great deductions made by the houfe, for which deductions the A. G. was always an advocate. Upon this Dr. C. L. fpoke to the following effect. • I cannot but highly commend that vigilant attention to the public treafure, and that fpirit of public economy, which have fo eminently distinguished the gentleman on the floor over against me, this day neither can I help expreffing my concern and furprise that he fhould ftop fhort. He has been very zealous to prevent the laying out public money in the improvement of the country, but he has very quietly acquiefced in its being fquandered away in penfions to foreigners: nay he has not been lefs eloquent as an advocate for this expence, than as an adversary to the other. As I had no reason to expect fo uncommon an inconfiftency of conduct, I did not think it would have fallen to my share to move, as I now do, that 25,000l. be ftruck off the lift of penfions. I fatter myself that every gentleman prefent will cheerfully concur in this motion, at least every gentleman who has diftinguished himself in favour of oeconomy, and, that as, it is evident, the nation will be a gainer, it is not neceffary to enquire who will be lofers. Except three or four, I believe they are all equally undeferving; and if the whole reduction was to fall upon the penfioners of this houfe, there would be no reason to regret it: for it would certainly be better for the conftitution, if no man in it had either penfion or place. I should, indeed, be forry to have it thought neceffary, upon this occafion, to enquire who the penfioners are, becaufe, I believe, it would puzzle the most knowing man in the kingdom to tell us: the very finding them out, to remit them their money, is attended with difficulty and trouble; and I cannot help confidering many of them as not having so much as a name.'-But this motion was withdrawn.

On the 25th day Mr. E. S. P. faid, I think one of the greateft difadvantages arifing from the grant of penfions, is the enriching aliens with the treasure of our country. I shall communicate a fact to this houfe, from which it will appear, that the grant of penfions to aliens, is fuppofed to be contrary to the fenfe of the nation, even by the advisers of fuch grant, and therefore not avowed, though made. There is a penfion granted nominally to one George Charles, but really to monfieur De Vercis, the Sardinian Minifter, for negotiating the peace, that has juft been concluded with the minifter of France. I muft confefs, Sir, that in my opinion, this fervice deserved no fuch recompence, at least on our part: fo that in this cafe, our money is not only granted to an alien, but to an alien who has no merit to plead. If it be thought a defenfible measure, I fhould

be