with the use of the pricing methods we have, we have seen these ups and we have seen these downs, and quite often we see one segment of the economy up and the other down. This is why we rotate and change our operation around on the farm.

Now, then, I am going to ask you this question: Why do farmers continue to live off of farmers in this movement instead of getting a stabilized price out here wherein we can live out of the marketplace? This is what has been happening.

Senator BELLMON. This bill we passed gives the Secretary the authority and responsibility to try to balance supply and demand, and if that happens, then we ought to have stronger prices.

This bill has only been in operation since October and it hasn't had a chance yet to have too much impact, although I think it could have been used better.

Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Senator HODGES. Any of you associated with the American Agricultural Movement in Oklahoma?

Mr. SCHIEBER. Yes, as an individual.

Senator HODGES. How many strike offices are there in Oklahoma? Senator SCHIEBER. At the last count, 187.

Senator HODGES. I am in complete agreement about the problem overseas. It shocked me to learn in the European Economic Community its threshold for wheat varies from $7 to $7.50, and in Japan it is $7-something, which is the threshhold price for American wheat. I think there is an answer. I think when we negotiate with Japan and there is a $10 billion surplus and they are trading with us, that we have a pretty good price pull with them that we don't have with other countries, and from everything I can see, and I spent a whole week when we were in recess studying the export market, we come in and agriculture has been in the back of the bus in terms of the dealings and all of those we have been able to trade off against other things.

I had a long talk with the Economic Community Ambassador to the United States, and I asked him whether due to our crises in agriculture, was there any flexibility in adjusting some of these threshold prices which are very, very high, and he said the one nonnegotiable item in all of our trade discussions is agriculture, that above all we intend to protect our farmer, and the last time it was even suggested we discuss that they brought cows and put them in one of the office buildings, and they remembered that, so there are governments in the world committed to protecting their farmers regardless of how artificial the barriers are. You could produce wheat all day and slip it over there in rowboats at $7 and be all right, so there are governments that are serious about it. I can't agree completely that our Government has done a very effective job in bargaining for the American farmers. I think it is just the opposite. That is my opinion.

Senator BELLMON. You are right. We have gotten the short end of the stick every time we have had these trade negotiations, and we are probably going to get it again unless we get somebody over there that knows something about agriculture.

Senator HODGES. Amen. I couldn't agree more.

Mr. BILLINGTON. Senator, didn't you try to get the State Department to include a specialist in agriculture to be involved in all of the trade negotiations? What success have you had with that?

Senator BELLMON. So far as I know, they haven't done anything about it. When Secretary Bergland was here, we asked him who it was, and he said he was.

I said, "Well, you are here," and I asked if anybody was there, and he didn't know the name of anyone.

I would join with the chairman and anybody else to demand we do have someone sitting in on the trade talks representing the farmers. Senator HODGES. I want to say two things in response, and one is I don't want Secretary Bergland to go because I consider him a consumer; and second, I don't think they want anybody there from agriculture because that person will speak up and cause some controversy. I don't think they have any intention of having someone representing agriculture in terms of getting us a higher price because they use the overseas market in depressing prices at home. It is part of what I call an overall cheap food policy that has been in effect since the 1930's.

Mr. BILLINGTON. I think yesterday Miss Ann Hierbaugh, president of the National Association of Commonwealth Districts, and Mr. Don Walsh, back there in the audience, visited with Mr. Fitzgerald and his assistants over there, trying to get them to come to some kind of statement as to why they were so bent on setting a restriction on the grazing set-aside, and they never really did give us an answer, but it was because, I think, Mr. York wrote that restriction in, and they have pride of authorship in some of the things they do, and they don't want to change the regulations they wrote. It hurts the American farmers, but it helps their ego, I guess.

Senator HODGES. We have very little time left, but let me say the policy is still not responding. I raise rice and soybeans, which are two crops that have done fairly well. The current price on rice is about $5.50, or a month ago it was about $5.50 a bushel. The Government began to unload our stocks at $4.50 a bushel. Of course it immediately drove the price down. It was a bonanza to the miller. Why would they do that when they can get $5.50 all day long? They did it to discourage people from planting rice.

Mr. BILLINGTON. That was your 1977 production they were selling. Senator HODGES. Actually it was the 1976 production, the earlier production, but my point is don't ever assume that those folks at USDA represent the farmer, because they continuously don't do that. Now, they stopped it after protest from Senators and Congressmen from those States that produce rice, but that is within 30 days, and it is just incomprehensible to me, unless you realize they are more interested in lower prices than they are fair return. And wheat is hurting more than anything. I will agree that cattle and wheat are the two most depressed and repressed and abused commodities in America. Now we have to quit at 12. Thank you for your statements.

Next is Mr. Anderson, president, Laramie County Farm Bureau, Pine Bluff, Wyo.

If you will all have a seat, you have 10 minutes, so you may divide it up however you wish.

I think it is helpful to the record if you tell us your name and the agriculture you produce and approximate acreage.

STATEMENT OF RODNEY ANDERSON, PRESIDENT,

LARAMIE

COUNTY FARM BUREAU, PINE BLUFF, WYO.; ACCOMPANIED BY ARLO BOWEN, DICK MCKAMEY, MILTON SMALL, MARGE NEWMAN, AND JOHN LONGFELLOW

Mr. ANDERSON. Mr. Chairman, I am Rodney Anderson and I will be speaking for the group. Many of the things that have been covered this morning are contained in our written testimony and with your permission I will submit the written testimony and just hit a few points that seem real important to us.

Senator HODGES. Without objection, that will be entered in the record.*

Mr. ANDERSON. I have with me Arlo Bowen, Niobrara County, Dick McKamey, from Washakie County; Milton Small, Platte County; Marge Newman, Goshen County; and John Longfellow, Fremont County. We cover the whole State of Wyoming, which is a big State, and we are here representing the County Farm Bureau.

We represent wheat, cattle, milo, barley, and a few commodities I haven't heard mentioned this morning, sugar beets, potatoes, some pork producers, and I have to admit this year to being a sheepherder. This is something we don't admit at home, but we will back here.

We are honored this morning to offer our suggestions and we appreciate this opportunity to appear before the committee.

Some of the things that we are vitally concerned about, and I think one of them was just mentioned one time this morning and we would like to reiterate it, and that is the Federal policy should recognize the economy of scale in agricultural operations and tendencies to contain the size of these operations should be discouraged. Certainly that is one point we would like to make that hasn't been made yet this morning, or more than once this morning, I should say.

We are also concerned, of course, as has been stated time and time again, about the import-export problems. The one on wheat has been mentioned. I don't think meat and sugar beets or sugar has been brought to your attention, but certainly these are real problems in our area and are depressing the farm economy.

We have in our submitted statement a chart of the 1977 Wyoming livestock statistical report that shows that net income has fallen to practically nothing. It certainly is of concern.

We think that importation of meat, sugar, and other commodities, of course, should be stopped when they cause excess of supplies. We also feel that there should be a real stand by the Federal Government to insure that imported commodities are of the same sanitary and quality standards that are required by our domestic producers, and we feel that the responsibility of the Federal Government should be to inform the consumer as to the origin of these products.

Another thing that has been mentioned time and again is that we would like to see a more effective use of the Food and Agriculture

*See p. 315 for the prepared statement of Mr. Anderson.

Act of 1977, and we feel reassured again that this committee is on our side and this is a boost to us, but we would like to see the set-aside program really implemented so that we avoid even more detrimental surpluses.

The overproduction is a problem and our feeling is not so much emphasis should be put on target price and loan price as to cutting production to bring the price back up in the marketplace.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for this opportunity and leave the rest of our time for you to make comments to us or to ask questions.

Senator HODGES. I think it would be helpful if you could go right down the line and tell something about your background-your name, age, how long you have been in farming and what aspect of agriculture you are in. The reason for that is that we have often heard the comment here that it is just young farmers that are in trouble and people that have gotten in farming in the last 3 years, and I find just the 'contrary to be true. I find it at all levels, and therefore I am simply trying to get on record the given people and their background. Give me your name and tell me what you do.

Mr. ANDERSON. I am in a family farm operation, a family corporation that has about 5,000 acres, about half of them irrigated acres. We raise cattle, sheep, hogs, potatoes, wheat, hay, and the small grains. Senator HODGES. How long have you had that family operation? Mr. ANDERSON. I am the second generation and I have been there since I got out of the service in 1954.

Senator HODGES. Do you find the problems in your size operation, and as long as you have been in it, do you find an acute problem at the moment with prices, as I call it?

Mr. ANDERSON. The profit at the present time is out of it. We are out of the profit picture and we are in a place where except for the land prices and increased equity in lands, we have no other out.

Senator HODGES. What does land sell for there?

Mr. ANDERSON. In my area of Wyoming, the dry land sells for about $100 an acre and the sprinkler irrigation to about $1,000 an acre.

Senator HODGES. You are talking about in your operation, if it was a corporation and expected a reasonable return, you would have a $75,000 to $100,000 return if you got 10 percent return on equity. Mr. ANDERSON. Right.

Senator HODGES. And it is showing a loss?

Mr. ANDERSON. Yes.

Senator HODGES. Could we go down the line?

Mr. McKAMEY. I am Dick McKamey from Worland, Wyo., and in our area we produce mostly cash irrigated crops. Sugar beets is one of our mainstays, or used to be years ago.

I farm 900 acres, irrigated ground, the majority of which is sugar beets. Obviously our concern is over that, and it struck me this morning as I heard every conversation about over-production, you know here is something we don't produce enough of in this country to meet our consumption needs.

Senator HODGES. We import.

Mr. McKAMEY. Well, we don't have a nice word for it. I am sure we can turn the deck around here and say how does this look from the

other side. I am sure some countries don't appreciate some of the things we send them at a price below farmers' cost over there. We have a perfect example of what can happen.

In the act of 1977 there were restrictions put on and tariffs and of course they missed refined sugar last fall and it came in for 2 months and one-third of our country's needs came in duty free and was dumped on the market and depressed the price down from 18 cents to 13 cents and hurt every farmer. We would ask for reasonable quotas on that stuff. We want to get rid of the excess imports. We are hurting, like every other segment of agriculture, but uncertainty is killing us worse than anything.

Senator HODGES. I don't want to cut you off, but we have about 3 minutes. Do you see a crisis in your area as far as agriculture is concerned?

Mr. McKAMEY. Yes.

Senator HODGES. How long have you been a farmer?

Mr. McKAMEY. I have been in a family farm and lived on a farm all of my life. I have been away from it in college and that sort of thing, but I have been back in farming for some period of time.

Senator HODGES. You are not a new producer that got in trouble in just the last 3 years?

Mr. McKAMEY. No.

Mr. BOWEN. I am Arlo Bowen, from Keeline, Wyo., a wheat and cattle farmer/rancher. I was interested in your comments about the two most depressed areas and you hit me right in the heart.

Senator HODGES. I didn't have to tell you that though.

Mr. BowEN. No; you sure didn't.

We have been in a family farm situation for 25 to 28 years and I did, in fact, take over the complete operation in the last 3 years. I have been hailed out twice in those last 3 years, and in order to maintain my stay there, I have been dipping into my dad's retirement.

I am interested in 20 percent set-aside or more, with payment for all of it because right now when I went to my bank, with my history of hail, I wound up being questioned as to whether I could rewrite or not due solely to this 20 percent out of my potential income. This 20 percent is what broke my back. My banker, in fact, did ask me not to reseal under the 3-year program because of the way the ASCS in our county presented the program to our county and interpreted it in favor of the taxpayer. So, therefore, I did not and now do not have any wheat to receive any benefits through the program as fed through the 3-year reseal and now that we have by going out and interpreting through other ASCS officers found out in fact it would have been very helpful, and I am this afternoon going to go to a fellow by the name of Arnold Bjorlie with the ASCS back here to discuss this problem and might be something that you could bring pressure about in implementing this set-aside program and making it work at the county level, and have proper interpretation.

Senator HODGES. How many acres are you involved with?

Mr. BowEN. 7,000 acres, partly owned and mostly leased.

Senator HODGES. You graze your winter wheat and do you buy your yearlings?

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